Show Notes:

If there’s one social media platform with the most potential for artists and bands right now, it’s TikTok. Whether you’re creating original content or hopping on the trends, it’s well worth having an active account.

In this episode, we talk to Brian Hayes (Coach Hayes) about his work with TikTok for artists like Johnny 2 Phones and sports organizations. We talk about what types of content work best on the app, the unimportance of production value, how to be authentic and still strategic, repurposing your content for TikTok, and choosing TikTok influencers to work with.

KOBY: [00:00:00] How’s it going? Everybody? I’m Koby Nelson and I’m here with Jake Mannix.

JAKE: [00:00:05] Yes. Hello. Again,

KOBY: [00:00:06] How are you doing?

JAKE: [00:00:07] good. Came back for number 41 here today. How are you doing over there? On the East coast?

KOBY: [00:00:13] I’m pretty good. making the big announcement. Say that you’re moving out to LA permanently. Just gonna stay there forever now.

JAKE: [00:00:19] uh, I wish, but you know, we all gotta head home sometime.

KOBY: [00:00:25] Heading home tomorrow. Right?

JAKE: [00:00:26] Yes. Yes, indeed. Back to the beast coast.

KOBY: [00:00:32] so, so for this episode today, we want to kind of continue on a little bit of the theme that we’ve been doing for the last couple episodes. We’ve been talking about visuals for your music brand, and we’re continuing with that on the side of social media today, specifically with tick-tock. So, I mean, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for any amount of time, this is a topic that we’ve kind of mentioned here and there in quite a few episodes. Mostly just kind of in passing as we’ve been talking to artists, and how they’re using tick-tock. But today we want to do a little bit more of a focus discussion on using it strategically for your music.

And I mean, I’m going to come out right away and admit that I don’t even have a Tik TOK account. I am not an expert at all on this topic, Jake you’ve at least experimented with the platform, right?

JAKE: [00:01:25] Yeah, I’ve dabbled here on that.

KOBY: [00:01:27] Right. So, I mean, we have some kind of knowledge that just from talking about it and discussing strategy, but for our guest today, we have a great videographer and, we’re going to have a discussion specifically about creating content for Tik TOK.

and again, if you’ve been listening to this podcast, He’s been mentioned a few weeks ago in episode 35 with Johnny two phones. and he’s, been helping Johnny build a following on Tik TOK. if you heard that episode, you know of him as coaches and we know of him as Brian, so we want to welcome to the podcast, Brian

Hayes.

BRIAN: [00:02:03] Thank you for having me.

KOBY: [00:02:04] Thank you very much for being here. this is going to be good. I’m gonna, I’m gonna learn something in this episode, guaranteed. because the only things I know are from like researching the topic and hearing from artists and how they’re using this. So I’m, I’m excited to actually get something out of this.

before we actually dive into any strategies, can you just give us a rundown of the type of work that you’re doing as a videographer and kind of how that plays into social work?

BRIAN: [00:02:31] so right now, most of the stuff I do as videographer is sports based. I’m like heavy into high school basketball. I shoot for a couple of companies like social media companies that cover high school basketball. And it’s actually like a really big industry. Doesn’t seem like it would be, but it’s huge.

Jake seen it firsthand living with me for the past, like month, all of the stuff that people post and like viral videos. so most of what I do is create content for them. Um, and then, also I can post stuff for myself as well. And then on top of that, I work with Johnny two phones, a lot on his content, here and there with some other people.

I helped them out. Not as much as him though, because we have more of like a friendship relationship. So I’ve just been helping him as a friend. yeah. So that’s how, um, in social media with videography.

KOBY: [00:03:22] So is that primarily Tik TOK or is that a little bit of everything that you’re doing?

BRIAN: [00:03:26] so with the basketball stuff, I actually ran a company called slam magazines. Take talk for a few months, got them from like 20,000 followers to 1.5 million followers. Um, yeah, I think it took like three and a half months to get that. but in terms of creating content, most of that’s going on like YouTube and Instagram and stuff.

KOBY: [00:03:46] okay, so there’s a little bit of a, a mix there, but that’s yeah, that’s a quick rise.

I mean, tick-tock is a, it seems to be a platform where that type of thing is. Possible. So, um, I definitely want to get your thoughts on some strategies to get to that for like, especially on the artist side of things. so you said for Johnny, like you kind of came at it from, the friend end of things.

First, like you guys were friends first, how did you end up working with him and ultimately becoming coach Hayes?

BRIAN: [00:04:16] So that’s actually a really long story. We’ve known each other since like 10th grade in high school. We played basketball together, during the travel season. And then I went to a college in Staten Island and then he went to Oneonta. I didn’t like my college. He was like, Oh, you should come here. And at the time I was getting into videography and stuff.

So. That night. He sold me on Oneonta. I went to Oneonta like a few weeks later. hated it there. I, I, I’m just not like a college person. I don’t like partying. I don’t like any of that. So like maybe if I was at Hudson Valley living at home, it would have worked for me, but I left college. I went heavy into video and did a couple of videos for him here and there.

I think the first music video we did was actually super late was, um, I think 21 was the first music video we did with him. but like, I was a part of other things like vlogs and stuff like that. And then recently, and this is with like most local artists, like solely, mostly everything, all of them. When I was writing the slam page, I had freedom to post, whatever I wanted.

So I was like, Hey guys, hit me up. If you want me to like, use your song, I’ll use it. And, no one really knew how much power Tik TOK had at that time. Like in terms of local artists and stuff, even like big artists, alias artists, they weren’t taking advantage of Tik TOK. Like they should have been. So like, I had a platform with 1.5 million followers and they just never hit me up to use their audio.

 but then finally with Johnny, he hit me up because he has a lot of ideas. Like some of them are too great. And I kind of got to check him on that. So he hit me up with his tick-tock idea to like, do super edited videos. would’ve taken like, at least like I’m a professional videographer would have taken me at least an hour to edit them, which like for Tik TOK, that’s a lot.

I shut it down. He went through with it, with his photographer, Mikey, and it did. Okay. I guess one video got 60,000 plays, but that’s to the extent of that. And then a couple of months later in, I think I Tober it was, I went back to Albany to visit family and stuff, and I was like, yo, I do take talk stuff.

That’s I’ve been doing it for a while. Like just let me help you listen to me. And he finally listened to me and like we started working on content ideas and a big thing with him is like, he. Needs people around him. Like there’s some artists that can just sit there and like be alone during their tick talks, but he’s very much so as showman and like needs people around him to bring the same kind of energy.

So once we got him in like the right niche spot for him to create content, it just blew up.

KOBY: [00:07:01] nice, yeah. So you had kind of a hand in both the like content ideas, but also, I don’t know, that kind of sounds like a, like a producer role.

If we’re looking at it, like on the music side of things, like where you’re, part of your role was just to get the best performance out of him almost for his social media.

BRIAN: [00:07:22] Yeah, I mean, in the beginning of his Tik TOK, like when we finally took over his Tech-Talk, we were scripting everything. Like it was to the point where I was telling him what to say and like, Because he just had no idea what was going on in the app. Like no one really knows until they spend a bunch of time on the app.

So now he’s actually really good at it. He knows like how to speak, how to, like, he doesn’t really need me that much anymore. He still runs stuff by me for tech talk, but like, yeah, in the beginning it was everything. Like I was on the phone with him six hours a day, just straight FaceTime from Johnny two phones, FaceTime from Johnny two phones.

JAKE: [00:08:01] how’d you end up working so closely with music as a videographer. I know you said you got linked up with Johnny, but how did you start working with music? Cause I know you’ve done other projects as well.

BRIAN: [00:08:11] Yeah, I mean, I’ve done some adjacent music videos as well. Um, Jake doesn’t like them, but like I did them. I mean, it all just stemmed off of him. Really I think, and I’m Riley Balcom, a local videographer as well. He’s heavy into music videos. And he does like, he’s probably one of the best in the area. Him and I bought a camera on the same day.

Like we were texting each other, like, Oh, we’re going to start doing videos. And he, on the business side, he’s like, he talks to anyone he’s really good at networking. So he got into music videos before me. I was doing like basketball video type stuff. And I just figured like, Oh, I’m going to try music videos too, because I didn’t know what I wanted to do later.

I figured out that it’s not really my thing, but like, I’ll still do it every once in a while, depending on the artist,

JAKE: [00:09:06] and you didn’t go to school for videography. So how did you learn.

BRIAN: [00:09:11] YouTube teaches you everything you need to know. I mean, school is. In my opinion. If you’re going to learn, like go to film school, you kind of have to go to like a full film school, like a school that’s known for film or else it’s not really going to be beneficial.

KOBY: [00:09:24] Right. And that’s kind of a specific type of thing that you’re learning in film school too. That, I mean, I don’t know, cause I haven’t gone to film school obviously, but like to me in my mind, like that doesn’t necessarily line up with what you’re doing so much.

Like is there even school for, the type of videography that you’re doing,

BRIAN: [00:09:41] Yeah, definitely. It’s a newer industry, but, um, I know film school teaches you like the base knowledge that you would need to know anyway, because like, even on the social media shoots, some of them like they’re super high paying social media shoots, obviously. And those are like, you need to know perfect lighting, like all of the stuff you learn at film school.

So like it’s still beneficial. But you don’t necessarily need it.

KOBY: [00:10:08] so I guess when it comes to Like you’ve said you’ve done music videos, you’ve done, some different types of things when it comes to tick talk.

to me, Tik TOK is kind of like a strange beast. Like we wanted to do an episode specifically about it rather than doing an episode about social media in general, because I mean, it kind of seems like the content that works on Tik TOK is specific to tick tock, like extremely specific even. and it’s able to be much more.

from what I’ve seen much more raw than other platforms like Instagram, for example, or YouTube, which can lend themselves to that more kind of like carefully curated, carefully edited together, kind of look, and that can work and like professional music, videos and everything, and photography can be great content for those types of platforms.

I think like Instagram. and I think they can work for Tik TOK too, if used

BRIAN: [00:11:03] I think that

KOBY: [00:11:04] but from what I’ve seen, at least that’s not the norm on Tik TOK. So can you tell us a little bit about your philosophy on content for tick-tock? Like what types of things work best on that platform?

BRIAN: [00:11:16] So unless you are good enough creating the high quality content yourself, in my opinion, you should just shove the phone in front of your face and make cheap content, Obviously there’s a space for high quality content on Tik TOK. But in my opinion, if you aren’t creating that content specifically to show off that high quality, then there’s, it’s unnecessary.

Like the cheap content. In my opinion, I say cheap, like cheap in terms of like the production value of it. it’s the best way to go because it’s all about pumping out like content on content and content on Tik TOK, because. something’s going to hit, like the way their algorithm is set up. Something is bound to hit.

If you just keep posting and keep posting and shoving it down people’s throats. So as a professional videographer, it’s weird telling people like, Hey, you don’t need good videos, but that is my advice.

JAKE: [00:12:09] and what, what’s the hardest part of grinding tick-tock like that

making so much

content.

BRIAN: [00:12:13] I think the mental part of like posting videos, seeing them get 300 views and then still having to be like, Oh, I got to keep doing this. Like, it will pay off because I mean, you saw it firsthand, Jake, you blew up your first post. And then after that you had an, I think a couple other posts, but like, besides that you weren’t getting many views.

So it’s, it’s definitely a mental game because even in the spot that Johnny two phones is that he has like 200,000 followers. But that doesn’t mean anything yet. Like, there’s kind of a point like, you hit a point in tech talk where yeah. You’re going to give you is on anything. But to get to that point is super challenging.

 JAKE: [00:12:55] So what role do you think. Tick-tock plays or will continue to play in the music industry.

BRIAN: [00:13:03] Um, I think it’s huge in the music industry now. I don’t know the longevity of tick-tock. I don’t know, like it could do anything. Social media is weird, but, um, Especially with how heavy Instagram is trying to push reels and stuff. I don’t know if tick-tock will be taking over. Like we saw vine vine didn’t last too long either.

but right now I think it’s the best way for artists to get put on even big artists, like is the best way for them to promote their music, especially in a pandemic, because like, obviously there’s no shows you can’t be out there promoting your music in person. So tick tock, if you get a tick, tock is viral.

Like you’re pretty much set.

KOBY: [00:13:42] Yeah, to me, it’s really interesting because it’s kind of comes back to what you were talking about before where the videos don’t have to be. Perfect or anything like that. Like, I think that’s one of the things that’s really powerful about Tik TOK and something that could be really powerful for artists in particular like, if you read anything about Tik TOK or what types of things work on Tik TOK, there’s always an emphasis on authenticity.

And I should put air quotes around that. Like listeners can’t see me, but it should put air quotes around authenticity because I think that’s such a hard thing to define in this particular case. And what I take that to mean is more like aesthetically, like Tik TOK works on that raw production style.

and it’s totally fine for a Tik TOK post to look like it was filmed and edited entirely on a phone. But I think it still has to be entertaining subject matter and, and put together in a way that makes people want to spend more time on the platform. Can you speak to that at all? As far as like musicians and when it comes to getting your music up there, like, what are some of the strategies that you can use to get people to stick around when you’re trying to promote your music on Tik TOK?

BRIAN: [00:14:54] Yeah. I mean, I think you really have to be honest with yourself as an artist on Tik TOK, because there’s people like solely had, who is so ridiculously talented musically, like, and he can just sing, like his voice is so unique. He can sit there and just sing his song. Probably going to do pretty well on Tik TOK.

other artists are probably going to have to try to like jump through some hoops and do like some gimmicky tick talks. If they don’t have that ability to like perform their music or if they don’t have like super unique music that doesn’t like pop out, They’ll probably have to like, like, I know, I see a bunch of people doing corny little videos, like, Oh, my manager said, I can’t release this song unless I get 50,000 likes on this video.

Like stuff like that. Right now that’s like overdone, but stuff like that is kind of where people have to lean because you also have to understand your audience on Tik. TOK is a lot younger than any other platform. And, Jake. And I were just watching YouTube videos of these people that Johnny and I were playing basketball with.

And they appeal to the younger audience so much because it’s so overly corny that like the only people that are going to watch it are a little

KOBY: [00:16:07] a little kid.

 BRIAN: [00:16:08] So you could go that route but it also depends on like, it’s kind of a sellout thing. Do you want to go that far?

KOBY: [00:16:15] far. But I think one of the interesting things about that too, is I feel like that’s the way a lot of social media platforms start. Like, I feel like that was Instagram.

Early on too. Like it was a younger audience or even like Facebook, like way back, like it was a younger audience and then it like transitions. first of all, as people get older with the platform, but also as just like more people join the platform. So I’m wondering for, tick-tock like, if it’s going to stay that way or because even now I feel like.

I don’t even know what the, regular demographic right now for Tik TOK is it’s probably what, 16 to maybe mid twenties, primarily. Like, I can see that getting older, like more older people jumping on it, especially as like the power of it has become more, accepted, I guess you could say.

So I’m kind of interested to see. How that goes, but I definitely see what you’re saying about, like, you can go that route of creating your content, around the idea that it’s going to be mostly viewed by younger people. I don’t know. Are there any strategies for that? As far as music that don’t go the super, super corny route where it’s not like you don’t have to make like kid videos.

BRIAN: [00:17:29] I mean, realistically, if you just put your music out in an authentic way, like. With Johnny, we chose his dad as a relationship because like, obviously it stands out his, him and his dad. his dad’s always working. Like, it’s a real thing we may have. I don’t know if anyone knows this, but we may have scripted his viral video, but like it’s still authentic.

It’s real to him. And. I think it came across as real and people didn’t think it was scripted because of how real it was. Like, you kind of just have to find your story a little bit, and attach it to your music. And as long as your music is good enough, like it, I think is going to come out. Like, I think you’re eventually, and you have to be consistent.

Like not, everyone’s going to blow up in their first video.

KOBY: [00:18:10] right. Yeah. Well, I, I really liked the idea of what you just said about, and I think a lot of people. mistakes when it comes to this. Like when we say authenticity is really important on the platform, I think it’s more authenticity of the idea.

like you can still create something in a way where like you have some say in it, it’s not just like off the cuff. Making it up as you go, you  can, come up with an idea hash it out and make it the most powerful thing that it’s going to be. And that can still be authentic as long as it’s coming from an authentic place.

and I mean that video that, that you’re talking about, with Johnny and his dad, I mean, that, that one was huge. I don’t even know how many millions

of

views that

BRIAN: [00:18:53] Um, I know it got 16 million on reels. I think he got like 8 million on Tik TOK

KOBY: [00:18:59] Yeah. So, I mean, there’s, proof right there

BRIAN: [00:19:04] and like, people are still gonna believe it’s authentic because at the end of the day, people put their like, there’s no way any of those reaction videos are real. Like, are you going to tell me that the person that you’re showing the song to don’t see the phone on the windshield

KOBY: [00:19:17] on the windshield.

BRIAN: [00:19:19] So it’s all, it’s definitely all planned, but like you just have to word it and acted out in a way that it doesn’t seem planned.

KOBY: [00:19:27] right. I mean, with the reaction videos One thing that we’ve talked about, in the past, I believe it was episode nine, quite, uh, quite a ways ago. is this idea of like social proof and, especially with music, I think. That it’s hard to hear a song for the first time and even really know whether or not you like it yet. So that kind of idea of social proof, having somebody react to it and almost tell you how to feel is really, really powerful.

So if you can create that in an authentic way like those types of videos, I think that works. I don’t know. Maybe that is something that’s. Overdone at this point, that is, that’s something that’s out there a lot. What do you think about like the trends and things being overdone? is that a, a problem with platform or a problem with people who are creating cars intent, or is that an asset?

Like, is that a thing that people should be looking to do to hop on trends and things like that?

BRIAN: [00:20:25] I mean, I think you definitely want to hop on translate. That’s pretty much what Tik TOK is made up of is people copying other people. Like I had a viral video of me pouring a bunch of chocolate into a cup of milk and then pouring like a little splash of milk and calling it chocolate milk. And this other kid copied it word for word used my audio.

And he got more views than me. So like, that’s literally what the app is made up of. but for people trying to do that, like you really have to be on the app a lot. You have to spend a lot of time in the app to understand what trends are in. Like, you have to catch it on the come up. Kind of like, obviously you, aren’t going to be the first person doing it unless you’re super creative, then that’s also really cool.

Like you’re going to be huge, but. You have to catch the trends earlier than like when they’re dead. I see a lot of people trying to do the trend way too late and that’s just not going to help them.

KOBY: [00:21:17] yeah. There’s a threshold for that. If you’ve seen it too many times, then it’s just another person doing it. I mean, one of the interesting things with that, and like you said, it’s hard to create the new thing, but as an artist, I mean, that’s kind of, that’s kind of the ideal, especially if you’re trying to use your own music as.

sound, right? Like you, you want people to be jumping on your song to do something. So is there any, I don’t know, how do you, how do you go about finding those types of things that you can get other people on the platform excited about enough, where they’re going to use your song in their tick-tock? I mean, that’s a super broad question, but are there any things that you like, any advice that you have for people.

BRIAN: [00:22:06] So outside of the song, just naturally performing like that, because I’ve seen like most tick-tock songs do just naturally pick up like that. Like one person does something to it and then it’s just a chain reaction. really you need label money. Like you need a lot of money to pay because Tik TOK following, like we said before is like, So feeble and like, it’s not real following to a certain extent.

There’s only a few people on the app that really have influence over like trends and stuff. So you would have to pay them like the Addison Rae, Charlie Demilio type people that have. Tens of millions, a hundred million followers that actually have influenced to start that. And obviously that’s like what the baby and make the Sallian who naturally have like tick-tock soundy songs, but that’s how they blow up every single time is because they have that label money that pushes it towards these creators.

 So, I didn’t really answer your question, but like to answer your question, I don’t think there’s one certain way. Like, I don’t think there’s any way other than it naturally

KOBY: [00:23:09] the natural, right? Yeah. And I mean, I, I wouldn’t want to tell people to write music specifically. For the platform either. Like, I don’t think that necessarily makes sense.

I don’t know, unless, unless like that is your thing and you just happen to write that type of music that you think could do well on Tik TOK.

BRIAN: [00:23:29] I mean, yeah, at the end of the day, it’s the same thing as the creating content for kids thing. How bad do you want to sell out your art for fame and success? Like if you don’t care about your art at all, go ahead I mean, I’m not saying you don’t care about your art, but if you don’t like stand behind your specific art and the style you’re going for before you go take talk, then like go for it.

I don’t think that’s it for bad personally. I mean, I’m not a musician, but like personally, I don’t think it’s a bad thing. If you want to

KOBY: [00:24:00] If you want to make music, not to say that Tik TOK music or any music that comes up on Tik TOK is bad music and that like, it doesn’t work in.

You know, not on Tik TOK as well. it’s just an interesting thing that there are definitely tic talkable. There’s a tic talkable sound.

BRIAN: [00:24:20] Yeah, there’s definitely some people that you can tell they’re making the song for tick-tock.

KOBY: [00:24:24] What about for like taking your music that hasn’t been written specifically for Tik TOK and your other content, maybe your music video, or I don’t know any other content that you’ve created.

Are there any strategies for repurposing that in a way that can make it work better on Tik TOK? Cause I feel like like a music video is meant to be more of a long form. like piece of content it’s directed at people who already know who you are. Like most people aren’t tuning in to watch a music video, if they’ve never heard of an artist before.

So like, is it just a matter of like cutting to the chorus of your music video and putting that up on the platform? Or are there any other ways to repurpose that content to make it better for Tik

TOK?

BRIAN: [00:25:10] so my suggestion, if you have the ability on set for the music video is to have like a friend or something, come with an iPhone and capture moments with the iPhone, like behind the scenes type stuff. Even if they’re filming, like you you’re performing scene just with the iPhone. I think that would perform a lot better than having the high quality music video on the app.

Because like personally, I see a high quality video. Most of the time I’m just swiping because I think it’s like an ad or like someone wants me to watch something. so if you get more of that authentic iPhone look, then I think you’re going to do better.

KOBY: [00:25:43] Absolutely. Yeah. I totally agree with that. And I mean, that comes back to that idea of being authentic you’re giving people the peek into what’s happening behind the scenes.

People overlook that a lot of the time, I think, because that’s the type of content that only somebody who’s already a fan of you. Would want to see, but I actually think that’s not true. Like that’s, that’s intriguing. Like when you see somebody’s real personality, like behind the scenes that I think has potential to make fans, whereas something like a music video is really directed to somebody who’s already familiar with a song and stuff like that.

So I think that’s really, really great advice actually.

BRIAN: [00:26:25] Yeah. And since you’re on the topic of re-purposing content, I think that every single piece of content should be repurposed onto, like, if you’re making a take talk video, you should be posting it on reels. And I know a lot of people have this mental block, like. Oh, my friends are on Instagram.

It’s more of like a, that’s your identity, Instagram risk Tik TOK is just like people posting content to get famous a little bit. I think everyone should be posting the same thing that they post on Tik TOK on reels. Even if you just don’t, even if it has the tic-tac logo and people know, you just took it from Tik TOK and put it on there.

You should be posting because Instagram is really pushing that algorithm.

KOBY: [00:27:01] True. Yeah. And that’s something that, I don’t know if we’ve mentioned that on the podcast before, but like any time that a social media or anything is. Like promoting a new feature, especially like, that’s something that you want to, you want to jump on. So the fact that Instagram came out with the reels tells you that, like, if you take your stuff from Tik TOK and put it on reels, chances are, it’s probably gonna work

BRIAN: [00:27:25] Yeah. Especially since they’re in competition, like it’s not even just a new feature, they’re trying to beat out Tik TOK. So they’re going to push it twice as hard.

KOBY: [00:27:33] Yeah. I also liked what you said. I’ve never really thought about the, two like apps as. Different audiences. But now I feel dumb, not having thought of that, but like where, when you said that like Instagram is your friends and Tik, TOK is more like strangers, you’re trying to come across random people, but that makes total sense.

Just the way it’s all set up. Really like you, your Instagram, you are choosing who. Whose content you want to see. And I guess there is some of that on Tik TOK too, but it is a lot more of the, just kind of like stumbling across

BRIAN: [00:28:07] Yeah. And it’s, it stems in my opinion from people like not wanting to get on the app because they see it as childish again. And. I had tick-tock super early because my little cousins got me on it. and I was like, what’s this? Like, I have no idea what it is. No one I knew had it because it seemed like a little kid’s app.

It seems like musically. And like, I definitely wouldn’t download musically. so I downloaded it and. For months, like, I didn’t follow anyone except for my cousins, because I didn’t know anyone on the app. So I was just scrolling through my four U page. And like that’s at the point where people around my age were like kind of embarrassed to have the app.

So you had it in like a folder hidden away somewhere on your phone. So as it’s grown, obviously there’s more and more people, but I think the idea of like, Oh, no one I know is going to see this content. So I’m more confident posting. It comes from that.

 KOBY: [00:28:58] do you think that that is an important thing as far as making. Content specifically for talk, like kind of having that. don’t really care,

BRIAN: [00:29:10] I mean, I think that’s important for any social media. Obviously. It’s hard to tell someone like, Oh, Be confident. It like, because I myself have issues with that too. Like, I don’t want to post stuff of myself. That’s embarrassing. But like, yeah, that definitely helps with social media and not caring what people are gonna think of you and music.

Like I think it’s going to hold you back musically, if you just care about what everyone thinks.  but like I said, it’s much easier said than done.

JAKE: [00:29:37] are there any mistakes that you and Johnny made on the way up or things that you wish you did differently?

BRIAN: [00:29:43] I definitely wish that we had another song. I mean, we had other songs ready to go, but like put it out for people to see instead of pushing rescue and only rescue for like a month and a half. I wish we had pushed a different song or something because we got to the point where people were like, okay, dude, we S we’ve heard rescue.

Like we did it. And then they stopped tuning in, I feel like a little bit, I don’t think it’s like super negative. Like it’s going to bounce back because he has so much good music that it’s bound to, like something’s going to hit. but if anything, that would be it.

KOBY: [00:30:21] how important do you think, like the frequency of posting. Is is it something where you need to have completely fresh new content all the time? Like, I dunno, I’ve seen suggestions of like three to four posts per day. And like, to me that seems like a lot of work and like, I mean, I’m not an artist I’m not posting to the platform at all, but that’s, that’s like daunting to me.

Do you think that’s necessary in order to be successful?

BRIAN: [00:30:53] I mean, it’s not necessary, but it definitely increases your chances. like, I don’t know if you’re only posting once a week. You better have extremely good content. Like. Your music. No one can turn it off. Basically. Like people are desiring your music, but if you have no fan base and you’re thinking like, Oh, I’m going to get by, by just posting one song a week or one video a week.

And I think this goes with like every piece of content. If obviously you can’t put out three to four songs a day, but like, if you’re trying to build your fan base and you don’t have consistency in posting music and like getting stuff out there, then I think you’re doing it wrong. And you don’t even have to do like crazy content for those three to four videos.

Like you can hop on those trends, those dancing trends, or like spin it yourself and do the trend.

KOBY: [00:31:43] Like how important do you think it is to have your own content? If you’re like, if you’re say you’re promoting your song, like how much of the content that you’re putting out needs to be about that in order for it to be useful to you as an artist?

You know what I mean? Like if you’re doing trends and stuff like that, I mean, I’m assuming that could still be helpful to you.

BRIAN: [00:32:05] Yeah. I mean, you definitely need to have a healthy mix because otherwise, like people are just going to get sick of the content of pushing your song. Or if you don’t let people know that you make music, they aren’t going to know. so I don’t have like an exact ratio as to what it is. You kind of have to base it off of like, like there’s this kid three, four, seven, eight in that pretty much only post music stuff.

He does a couple of trends, but it works for him because of the audience he has. He has like that new age emo type music, the like, I don’t know what genre, it really falls under. But it works for him because of the audience he has. so really you just have to be aware of who you’re trying to reach and like who you have listening already.

KOBY: [00:32:51] to me, that’s, it’s a tough thing to kind of figure out who your audience is, especially. when you’re trying to grow your audience and you don’t have a massive audience. how much do you think it matters?

If you have variety in your content versus like doing one thing where people kind of like, know that that’s what you do. Like for example, uh, an account that does just do like reaction videos or something like that, that, if you know that account, you know, that’s what they do is that just as valuable as having.

a ton of variety or is a ton of variety

BRIAN: [00:33:25] well that again, I think depends on what you’re doing. So like if you’re making music and trying to push it on the app, It’s extremely difficult to put out four to five pieces of content of the music you make per day. So I think that’s where you need a little filler content. If you’re doing reaction videos where your, your content is made for you, like you pretty much just use other people’s content react to it.

Like you aren’t really making the original content it’s original, but like you aren’t the base of it. Isn’t original. Then that’s a lot easier and you should just stick to like one thing. Or if like you’re a cooking channel, you should just stick to one thing, because if you have variety of people are going to be confused, but as an artist, you’re more so selling people on your personality and like who you are.

in my personal opinion, like obviously some people see it differently. You’re, showcasing your music, your art, but like, in my opinion, in this day and age, like. The music isn’t enough. You kind of need to have something to go along with it. People need to be attracted with the personality. So throwing in your personality, I don’t think is ever a bad thing.

 JAKE: [00:34:33] So how about Let’s say there’s an artist out there that doesn’t want to be, it doesn’t even want to have a Tik TOK account. They just want to push their music through the TOK creators that are already there. And that’s it. What would you have to say to them?

BRIAN: [00:34:47] I hope you have money. Like that’s the only, uh, I mean, you can hit up a bunch of smaller creators, like 50 to a hundred thousand followers, but those people also have some egos. They think that they are important people. So they’re probably going to ask you for money. That’s not worth it for you to pay. And that’s an issue that a lot of artists, I think, have they pay people for tick-tock content, but don’t realize that like, yeah, they have 30,000 followers, but that doesn’t really mean anything on that app.

so yeah, if you don’t want to get on the app and like get on the app and that’s, that’s my advice

KOBY: [00:35:23] Is there, is there like a threshold for that? Like what size account

does it actually become

worth working

with?

BRIAN: [00:35:31] I mean, you really just have to looking at engagement on top of the size, because like, if someone has a million followers, I’ve seen people with a million followers getting 3000 views on some videos, which mathematically doesn’t make much sense. In terms of like traditional social media. Like usually it’s like, you need 10% engagement or else your followers are fake, but Tik TOK, that’s thrown out the door.

Like you could have a million followers, they actually followed you. You didn’t pay for those followers, but they just don’t you see the content. so really you just have to check engagement. And like I said, there’s very few people that have the ability to like influence a new trend every single

KOBY: [00:36:08] every single time.

JAKE: [00:36:09] something that you said the other day, Brian was that, sometimes creators will delete their lower performing videos. So their profiles will look better too, so they can keep charging more or whatever.

BRIAN: [00:36:19] Yeah, I’m not sure if there’s apps and softwares to check that. I know Instagram has stuff that like. You can see their actual engagement and how many followers are active on there. I’m not sure if tick-tock has anything like that yet, I mean, sometimes you can tell based off of, um, like dates that they were posted and stuff, and like, you can tell if there’s a big gap in time between their two posts that they’re just keeping the viral videos.

But other than that, there’s not really

KOBY: [00:36:47] really any way to tell. Yeah, that’s true. I would have never thought of that. Like vetting somebody before you’re. Paying for something. Cause yeah, you don’t, know who paid them really for anything.

So they, they could have been paid by a bunch of people like nothing came out of it at all. That’s kind of scary. I dunno. I, I know it’s like, it’s a gamble at the end of the day, no matter what, but like, are there any other things that you can do to make that more likely to be

BRIAN: [00:37:15] I mean, like I said before about like staying on top of trends, you really just have to be on the app. Like you have to be aware of who people are on the app. Like. It’s funny, having hunted G Jake and Johnny live with me the past month. how, like out of tune out, I’m not saying this in a mean way, but how out of tune they are with social media and like who’s in social media.

Like I know all of the drama in social media. I know all of the people in social media road. I don’t even know if I love it. I just like know it because I’m on the app so much. And like, I could tell you, Oh, you should pick this person because they live in a content house with these people and these people have crazy engagement.

So like it’s real. yeah. So that’s really, you either need to be on the app, yourself learning all of that stuff, or

KOBY: [00:38:04] stuff, or, you know,

some

BRIAN: [00:38:06] stuff.

Yeah. Johnny comes to me with a bunch of lists For tick-tock creators that like people curate these creator lists that like, Oh, we’ll take this amount of money and push it to all of these creators.

And he has no idea who these people are. He sends them to me and I’m like, and this, this, this, this, this isn’t worth it. But that’s where a bunch of companies will get you because bill show you like, Oh, we have a reach of 20 million people in this Tik TOK list because they have that many followers combined.

But a lot of the content creators don’t really matter.

 KOBY: [00:38:42] like, do you have any advice for people if they’re trying to if they’re trying to find somebody like you trying to find a friend or something who has some of that knowledge, like where can people go to

 BRIAN: [00:38:54] I would honestly just go to younger people. Like I’m 22, I’m even probably a little old for like, In terms of knowing the app like that. but realistically, if you had like a younger sibling, a younger cousin, anyone younger in the family, just talk to them about it because they might not know like the business side of it, but they know who’s popular.

They know who like those popular people are friends with. They know all of these content creators by heart, probably even more than me. so yeah, I would talk to them for advice on like, Hey, I have this person that wants me to, um, pay them. Do you think that they have like real fans? Do people care about them and obviously were to, in a way that like it’s easy for them to digest, but I think young kids could honestly help you a

KOBY: [00:39:40] I think you have to.  that’s a good thought and yeah, just go to the, go to the people who are using it the most. Yeah. I think that’s good advice. what are some of the major misconceptions that people have. Just in general with tick tock, like say somebody who has no experience with it whatsoever and is kind of skeptical about it. Like what, what are the major misconceptions that people have that, you can kind of smash,

BRIAN: [00:40:07] Um, tick-tock, isn’t just a bunch of kids dancing. It’s not musically. It’s more so vine than musically. And, but it’s like a new age vine where like, it just works for everyone. And like, you can create content. That’s going to promote stuff on there. Whereas vine was just a bunch of stupid videos.

This is more like

KOBY: [00:40:26] More like

BRIAN: [00:40:26] you can target people with ease. It’s not even though I keep saying the audience is younger, it’s not really a little kids app anymore. Like from when I got on it, even when Jake got on it, it’s aged so much. And I think I credit like Meg, the stallion and the baby for being two of the first artists.

Like they were kind of cutting edge with Tik TOK. They pushed their music on there. First made the stallion definitely before the baby. And now they’re just huge tick tock artists. So I think that people think that it’s a lot younger than it is even today. yeah, I think that people just have to get on Tik TOK and stop worrying about like,

KOBY: [00:41:05] about, Yeah. I mean, I totally know where you’re coming from on that. Cause like, I was that until like fairly recently, you know, like until seeing these artists kind of like legitimize it.

And show that it is like it’s actually a powerful tool, and something that all, I think all artists really, regardless of genre, regardless of anything, regardless of age, whatever should at least be looking into and trying, it is, I think discouraging for a lot of people starting out on it, because it is an app where.

You can get literally nothing like no engagement at all or a ton. And it’s, I don’t know a big mystery to a lot of people, but I think you’ve given a lot of good advice today for ways to make that, work or dif different ways to think about it. do you have any kind of last advice overall for artists when it comes to tic-tac?

BRIAN: [00:42:04] like I said, just stay consistent. Try not to get too discouraged when your content doesn’t really do anything because everyone has content on there that doesn’t do anything. other than that, you just have to realize that, like, if you put your talent out there, you’re better than probably 95% of the world, realistically, because like 95% of the world doesn’t do what you do.

They haven’t even attempted it. So like, you could be impressing people, even if you don’t think it’s impressive. Or like, even if. You compare yourself to your peers and like, they’re more impressive at this certain thing. You are probably more impressive than 95% of the world, and people might be impressed by it.

So don’t be scared to

KOBY: [00:42:44] Don’t be scared. I think that’s good advice in general, just for, Not being scared to put yourself out there with your music. well, Brian or coach Hayes. Thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and talk with us about this.

This has been really informative to me, and I mean, this is such a complex topic. So, we really appreciate your insight and for you kind of giving us the rundown on all of this. So thank

you.

BRIAN: [00:43:08] Yeah, I appreciate you guys having me and you

KOBY: [00:43:10] And you should, um, I should, I don’t know. I’ve been dancing around it for forever. Just like,

BRIAN: [00:43:17] You don’t even have to post it’s super entertaining as well. Like the content that you can watch is super entertaining.

KOBY: [00:43:26] Yeah, I, and I feel like should be more informed about it than I am as far as trends and everything. So yeah, maybe I will. I will. I’ll I’ll commit to it here. I’ll get a tick tock.

BRIAN: [00:43:36] I’ll follow your account once you make it.

JAKE: [00:43:39] Well, Brian, thanks again for coming on, brother. guys, if you liked this episode, I know it was a little different about Tik TOK, not directly about music, but I think we have some gems in here from, uh,

KOBY: [00:43:50] about, but I think you have some

JAKE: [00:43:52] And if you guys liked this episode of self signed artists, go ahead and leave a five-star written review on Apple podcasts 

KOBY: [00:44:02] absolutely. Thanks for listening. And that’s all we’ve got for you on this episode and we’ll catch you on the next episode of self signed artist.